tommi kirjoitti:When I was 15 years old I had completed 9 years of formal training in mathematics, biology, geography, Finnish language, music and art. Of course the training didn't end there, that was just the basic minimum that everyone must go through.
So where do you find these people with untrained minds?
"Jesus!?" (to take a usual expression), do you think that this is mind training in the sense of Dhamma? You can be sure that you have got a training that pretty has driven you totally outward and into objectification.
Tell a heavy educated person about emptiness and you can be sure that he will be totally confused, at best he would hang around for centuries in forums and discuss matters and concepts.
So when you say "untrained mind", you mean something more specific still, untrained "in the sense of Dhamma"? So what does that mean?
Tommi, normal education (worldly education) is about learning concepts and ways of thinking and its also about remembering them. One does not train to observe mind, one is not trained to observe inside the frame of references.
Most parts are actually fully in the other direction. It does not mean that there are certain trainings in concentration but as told, also a hunter is trained in concentration (samadhi).
Johann kirjoitti:If we read certain commentaries of "teachers" we can see that they hardly respect the elders and the teachings of long traditions.
Actually the point of this vow is even on another level as meant, I would not even talk about here.
So are you now saying that the quote you posted regarding the 11th boddhisattva root downfall (based on Tsongkhapa's commentary) is incorrect? If you think it is incorrect then why did you post it here in the first place?
No, it means that it actually has also a second reason, a coloring, which does not fit to the original problem/danger. Although this colored intention would prevent for doing wrong in regard of the uncolored.
That means that the precept it self is correct, while the commentary is incorrect in its detail end partly (when one looks at the motivation) even against a Bodhisattva-intention. How ever, at least it could prevent others form giving them a field of ripping, even ones own intentions, why not giving such a field, is not wholesome at least.
tommi kirjoitti:In the west I would imagine that 90% of people haven't even heard of the buddhist concept of emptiness, so I find it unlikely that it would be used as an excuse for anything.
That would be good, but actually it isn't. Just look at forums.
Which forums should I look at? And how many people are there having discussions on these forums? Would you estimate that more than 10% of the population of western Europe is participating in these forums?
You would not find one and you would not find many "Starter classes" where this is not the main discussion point.
Dhamma - A Gradual Training
The gradual training begins with the practice of generosity, which helps begin the long process of weakening the unawakened practitioner's habitual tendencies to cling — to views, to sensuality, and to unskillful modes of thought and behavior. This is followed by the development of virtue, the basic level of sense-restraint that helps the practitioner develop a healthy and trustworthy sense of self. The peace of mind born from this level of self-respect provides the foundation for all further progress along the path. The practitioner now understands that some kinds of happiness are deeper and more dependable than anything that sense-gratification can ever provide; the happiness born of generosity and virtue can even lead to rebirth in heaven — either literal or metaphorical. But eventually the practitioner begins to recognize the intrinsic drawbacks of even this kind of happiness: as good as rebirth in wholesome states may be, the happiness it brings is not a true and lasting one, for it relies on conditions over which he or she ultimately has no control. This marks a crucial turning point in the training, when the practitioner begins to grasp that true happiness will never be found in the realm of the physical and sensual world. The only possible route to an unconditioned happiness lies in renunciation, in turning away from the sensual realm, by trading the familiar, lower forms of happiness for something far more rewarding and noble. Now, at last, the practitioner is ripe to receive the teachings on the Four Noble Truths, which spell out the course of mental training required to realize the highest happiness: nibbana.
Many Westerners first encounter the Buddha's teachings on meditation retreats, which typically begin with instructions in how to develop the skillful qualities of right mindfulness and right concentration. It is worth noting that, as important as these qualities are, the Buddha placed them towards the very end of his gradual course of training. The meaning is clear: to reap the most benefit from meditation practice, to bring to full maturity all the qualities needed for Awakening, the fundamental groundwork must not be overlooked. There is no short-cutting this process.